Quite right, Billy. I'm sure you'll make a very strong point taking all factors into account.
Max Divergent
JoinedPosts by Max Divergent
-
39
Billy's comments to the RC #1 - "We always require at least two witnesses... except for when we don't."
by Billy the Ex-Bethelite ini'm still trying to catch up on the rc broadcast posted to youtube, and i haven't been able to keep up with everything discussed here about it.
however, there have been a few points that i wish i could submit.
repeatedly it has been stated that unless there is a confession, jcs can only act on testimony if it is corroborated by two or more witnesses to the wrongdoing.
-
-
-
39
Billy's comments to the RC #1 - "We always require at least two witnesses... except for when we don't."
by Billy the Ex-Bethelite ini'm still trying to catch up on the rc broadcast posted to youtube, and i haven't been able to keep up with everything discussed here about it.
however, there have been a few points that i wish i could submit.
repeatedly it has been stated that unless there is a confession, jcs can only act on testimony if it is corroborated by two or more witnesses to the wrongdoing.
-
-
Max Divergent
But this seems to be about the standard for determining the freedom to remarry, not the standard for finding guilt of porneia / adultery at a JC to allow disfellowshiping.
So, I'm not sure how relevant it actually is to the RC given it's the latter JC standard that is at question.
(Although it may demonstrate some flexibility with the scriptures).
-
86
Geoffrey Jackson. Seems he will be compelled to front up.
by umbertoecho inpray for brother jackson of the governing body!.
in todays news from australia it appears that, despite his previous declination to appear when invited, justice mcclellan from the australian royal commission on child sex abuse will officially summon brother geoffrey jackson to the stand after all.. ..... the commission was due to conclude its hearings into the jehovahs witnesses on wednesday but justice mcclellan said he will now call geoffrey jackson, a senior member of the churchs governing body in new york who is currently in australia, to appear next week.. .
source.
-
-
Max Divergent
'Natural person' just means a human as opposed to a company since companies are bound by the law too.
Citizenship is pretty much irrelevant. It's where a person is that determines what law they're under. So if a U.S. Citizen GB member was in Australia, it'd be the same deal as for (I assume) Australian citizen Jackson. It's the fact of a GB member being within the jurisdiction of the RC more so than him being Australian.
-
86
Geoffrey Jackson. Seems he will be compelled to front up.
by umbertoecho inpray for brother jackson of the governing body!.
in todays news from australia it appears that, despite his previous declination to appear when invited, justice mcclellan from the australian royal commission on child sex abuse will officially summon brother geoffrey jackson to the stand after all.. ..... the commission was due to conclude its hearings into the jehovahs witnesses on wednesday but justice mcclellan said he will now call geoffrey jackson, a senior member of the churchs governing body in new york who is currently in australia, to appear next week.. .
source.
-
-
Max Divergent
Only time will tell.
It's a calculation for all the parties to make, including the RC.
But thems are the rules.
-
86
Geoffrey Jackson. Seems he will be compelled to front up.
by umbertoecho inpray for brother jackson of the governing body!.
in todays news from australia it appears that, despite his previous declination to appear when invited, justice mcclellan from the australian royal commission on child sex abuse will officially summon brother geoffrey jackson to the stand after all.. ..... the commission was due to conclude its hearings into the jehovahs witnesses on wednesday but justice mcclellan said he will now call geoffrey jackson, a senior member of the churchs governing body in new york who is currently in australia, to appear next week.. .
source.
-
-
Max Divergent
Surely he'll comply with a summons rather than commit an offence, whatever the penalty. It's a matter of him finding a legal way to get out of it, if he can.
For one thing, I assume he is on a visa of some sort to live in the US. The US takes a dim view on giving visas to foreigners with criminal convictions. He might find himself in exile!
-
86
Geoffrey Jackson. Seems he will be compelled to front up.
by umbertoecho inpray for brother jackson of the governing body!.
in todays news from australia it appears that, despite his previous declination to appear when invited, justice mcclellan from the australian royal commission on child sex abuse will officially summon brother geoffrey jackson to the stand after all.. ..... the commission was due to conclude its hearings into the jehovahs witnesses on wednesday but justice mcclellan said he will now call geoffrey jackson, a senior member of the churchs governing body in new york who is currently in australia, to appear next week.. .
source.
-
-
Max Divergent
SSC: Hmm perhaps that's were ol' Jackson will disappear through a squirm hole: $1000 fine
If he committed any offence in respect the RC, whatever the penalty imposed if any, what would that say about the prior witnesses testimony that the JWs would obey secular law and cooperate with the RC in respect child abuse?
-
86
Geoffrey Jackson. Seems he will be compelled to front up.
by umbertoecho inpray for brother jackson of the governing body!.
in todays news from australia it appears that, despite his previous declination to appear when invited, justice mcclellan from the australian royal commission on child sex abuse will officially summon brother geoffrey jackson to the stand after all.. ..... the commission was due to conclude its hearings into the jehovahs witnesses on wednesday but justice mcclellan said he will now call geoffrey jackson, a senior member of the churchs governing body in new york who is currently in australia, to appear next week.. .
source.
-
-
Max Divergent
Relevant extracts from the law under which the RC operates:
ROYAL COMMISSIONS ACT 1902 - SECT 2
Power to summon witnesses and take evidence
(1) A member of a Commission may summon a person to appear before the Commission at a hearing to do either or both of the following:
(a) to give evidence;
(b) to produce the documents, or other things, specified in the summons.
ROYAL COMMISSIONS ACT 1902 - SECT 3
Failure of witnesses to attend or produce documents
(1) A person served, as prescribed, with a summons to appear as a witness at a hearing before a Commission shall not:
(a) fail to attend as required by the summons; or
(b) fail to attend from day to day unless excused, or released from further attendance, by a member of the Commission.
Penalty: $1,000 or imprisonment for 6 months.
ROYAL COMMISSIONS ACT 1902 - SECT 6
Penalty for refusing to be sworn or to give evidence
(1) If any person appearing as a witness before the Commission refuses to be sworn or to make an affirmation or to answer any question relevant to the inquiry put to him or her by any of the Commissioners, the person shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) The penalty for an offence under subsection (1) is a fine not exceeding $1,000 or imprisonment for a period not exceeding 6 months.
(3) Subsection (1) is an offence of strict liability.
Note: For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code .
ROYAL COMMISSIONS ACT 1902 - SECT 6A
Self incrimination
(1) It is not a reasonable excuse for the purposes of subsection 3(2B) or (5), or section 6AB, for a natural person to refuse or fail to produce a document or other thing that the production of the document or other thing might tend to:
(a) incriminate the person; or
(b) make the person liable to a penalty.
ROYAL COMMISSIONS ACT 1902 - SECT 6DD
Statements made by witness not admissible in evidence against the witness(1) The following are not admissible in evidence against a natural person in any civil or criminal proceedings in any court of the Commonwealth, of a State or of a Territory:
(a) a statement or disclosure made by the person in the course of giving evidence before a Commission;
(b) the production of a document or other thing by the person pursuant to a summons, requirement or notice under section 2 or subsection 6AA(3).
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to the admissibility of evidence in proceedings for an offence against this Act.
-
22
Evolution is not even a theory! So says the WTBTS writing dept!!
by DATA-DOG inhas anyone read the new awake ragazine??
it's a doozy!!
i thought we had a thread concerning this subject, but i can't find it.
-
-
Max Divergent
They do say that where the bible says the earth is 'a circle hanging on nothing' (ie: flat and maybe supported from underneath), it means the same as 'a sphere held by gravity'.
Frankly, I'm amazed sometimes that they acknowledge that the Earth orbits the Sun.Which is kind of perverse really.
-
44
Question for those still attending...is anyone talking?
by ToesUp inwe haven't been to a meeting or jw event in several years.
we have been following the rc closely.
it is fascinating!
-
-
Max Divergent
What I don't get is how the Christian God would prefer a church that protects child abusers and makes children vulnerable to them, but that Satan runs a system that protects children and prosecutes abusers.
It's the wrong way around.
Maybe the JW's Jehovah is everyone else's Satan? He is 'The Deceiver' after-all.
Alternatively, the WTS are just people who've f'd up.
-
21
Mandatory reporting and misprision
by Xanthippe inday 7 of the australian royal commission has chair justice peter mcclellan raising the point that i have been wondering about all along, which is, how can these elders not report child abuse to the authorities especially when a full confession has taken place?.
justice mcclellan asked toole, the wts's lawyer, if he is aware that there is a difference between an organisation being required to have mandatory reporting of child abuse to the authorities and misprision which is the concealment of a felony, itself a criminal offence?
toole says he is aware of it now but he wasn't before!
-
-
Max Divergent
This letter of legal advice sets out the Australian law at the time as regard misprison of felony in respect church leaders who concealed confessions of child abuse..
It is a compelling read in the context of the RC.
If starts off...
You have asked us to consider the possibility of charges being laid against individuals within the Church arising from their concealment of knowledge of the activities of paedophile Priests.
and finishes with...
It would appear accordingly that it is only in the States of Victoria and New South Wales that there may be consideration given to charging members of the Church hierarchy with Misprision in Circumstances where knowledge of a felony has been concealed.
The branch is in New South Wales.